Forums > Motorcycle Discussion > Comprehension...

N8,

I'm no racer, and never will be, BUT:  I certainly enjoy reading about/learning high performance riding techniques.  There's a reason that I re-read both 'Proficient Motorcycling' and 'A Twist of the Wrist II' on a regular basis.

Thanks for this, I for one am certainly interested in anything you have to say on the matter.  Oh yes, and I hope ya feel better soon. 

Real world applications:  When I have lunch for both my wife and myself in the top box, I need to minimize my bike's lean angle on the way home.  So while I don't exactly 'hang off' the F650GS, I do get my rear end over and lean.  There's a very noticeable effect, with the bike turning much more upright than it otherwise would.

Thanks for your time N8 !

Recently, I discovered that coming into road corners to HOT was also a problem for us mortal members who need more info on the things you know in order to survive on the road.

I'd like to see you talk more on these specific things that we can use whether on the track or on the road, I know I'm trying constantly to improve or even find my style that gives me a safe edge when I ride!

Thanks for bringing it up !!

JC

PS: Get well soon, I crashed on an oil slick last summer and broke 6back ribs and punctured my lung and know the pain must be terrible for you laying there, and that getting up for the first few times will be very difficult, but necessary! I slept upright in a recliner for 6 wks! 

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'06 ducati 620 Multistrada; '81-ish BMW R100 "Project Enduro Rat"

       Please. Chat on....

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******Mike****** "We choose our joys and our sorrows long before we experience them."

Nate,

I'm all ears, as I am doing my first track day in Loudan on June 4th.

Get well like you ride...FAST.

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Pete... What?... Me Worry?

Please return and continue this thread.

Very interesting and certainly lessons from which most of us can benefit!

Thanks for taking the time.

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jean

Jean,

Yes you witnessed the encounter of which I speak and as you too Redstreak, whom I was casually following. I think N8's advice on how to get your bikes around corners would be of interest to us all .

I specially like the concept of conservation of lean ability, common sence and science tell us to use that which is in short supply conservatively and in cornering and traction we need to know those laws of physics that Dr. N8 has experienced and knows of full well.

To N8, 

And N8, please be very carefull when you get up cause it will hurt. But that's the only way to get started on your road to recovery and on to victory. You are a great guy to take the time to help your fellow BMW enthusiasts while you are on the mend!!!

For me getting out of the bed was one of the hardest things I've ever done, that and repeated trips to X-ray, getting to feel the ribs snap out of place each time they drug me across the bed on to the cart and table for several days, so good luck and get well soon.

Cause your achievements and presence here make a lot of difference!!!!!! 

Those on the track and those of us out on the street who sometimes find ourselves in trouble occassionally.

Right Gang???

JC.

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'06 ducati 620 Multistrada; '81-ish BMW R100 "Project Enduro Rat"

Thanks N8!

Love this post. us guys and gals that ride for fun can use a lot of tips from a pro like yourself to keep it fun and safe. Thanks again!

shoot, lol, i didnt really re read where I left off.... well hey, the most important aspect again, I feel that can be easily adapted, but only through comprehension first is minimizing lean angle through a lower center of gravity.  There are so many times, speaking from experience, you feel you have moved way more off the saddle and your torso too, that you are really emulating what you see on TV or magazines, but still running wide with a scary feeling attatched.  It is because of a very common mistake I used to be guilty of, sitting way to upright and that makes you use way to much lean angle. 

Way to much lean angle naturally decreases your contact patch.  As I type this please do not be offended if you feel you knw this already and or some of it.  By no means am I ever talkng up or down or any direction, but the right and safest way I have found.  I know it clicks instantly due to articultion, and many of u do understand, just sometimes it has o be articulated.  Thats the way it worked for me, before i ever got on the bike to try new techniques.  SO, basically your bike is fighting you.  You are thinking I need to lean more to make this corner, my body feels right, but the tires, especially the front, is screaming "Im running out, please no more..."  Put your fists on top of each other as if you were holding a baseball bat.  Ok, the bottom one is the bike (my left hand, lol, Im not wrong handed, right handed, just kidding) the top is the rider.  Start t bend the bike (bottom fist) to the right and keeping the just like a baseball gbat grip, as the bike leans now without moving the top fist at all, see where the center of gravity is?!  The bike is trying to turn, but your forcing the bike to turn more to make the corner because you body is fighting the bike with a high center of gravity. That is using to much lean angle to make a corner when you do not overly empahsize hanging off, but that center of gravity can be moved even the the five inches from the base of your spine to the the top of your head, the bike will baturally turn, but you still have more contact patch on the ground.

Another very very tough thing to break, that you may not veen know you do, for a bit quicker sort riding, where you need all the contact patch you can have is, not twisting your spine up the tank.  Meaning, you move your butt off the seat and or feel that you are, as you do so you lean the bike in but again you odnt realize your bike is fighting to turn as you put more input in, your butt may be pointed and or off the seat in the direction you want to turn, but now your twisiting your back up the side of thetank and as the nike leans you are conuntering by keeping your helmet as up right and in the middle of the windshield as possible. Your thinking, as I did too, man Im hangin off and your eyes are what mak you feel everything is ok, they are looking in the right direction mostly, but your body is still on top of the bike. 

Countering this is to keep your shoulders as square and not twist your spine up the tank.  As you lean your gas cap, top triples, winshield, everything goes over, the more it oes over you should almost double that with your body off, depending on speed.  So, when you see, lets say the pic that is the avatar (is that right?) for me on here,leading in with the forehead and shoulder, square not twisted, gets the weight off the tank, the only weight on top of the tank and gas cap is my arm. maybe a bit of my shoulder, that line goes lower from your arm/shoulder to now your head and chest when you twist up the tank.  sometimes I have seen 3/4's of a riders upper body.  Well, people say i make it daily, I pray and wihs that for them, to make it and enjoy the ride, but by sitting to upright again, minimizes contact patch and increases percentage of a crash because you cannot ask anymore of the tire to get you out of a bad situation!

Sorry Im jumping around a bit and have the record for run on sentences, but I really like seeing people enjoy their riding more.  I would not be where I am without the help of many, so if it makes a little sense and helps...?!

I know I mentioned the turning with the rotors, but I felt I needed to finish that first, with the body language.  Lets see, without getting to complicated, I think it starts with the riders comprehension, then not just going and doing it, but the bike comprehension of settings and just a baseline for safety. that starts with tire pressure.  That is in my mind the single most issue with incidents that do not allow you to get out of a bad situation.  There is then the factor of cost and longevity of tire life.  I do not ride neough on the street to worry about tire life, but it is a real world factor.  I think there is a happy medium though in the right pressure that allows your tire to work in your favor on turning and better grip through contact patch, and also not to low that it kills your tire in the middle.

 Man, maybe what I thought was just a post provoked by some emails with questions, maybe Im in it now! lol  jk.  This is cool to see that we have an interest.  There are books on riding and again they are comprehension first, but they are also non BMW bikes.  We have a very special bike that is very easy to ride and VERY forgiving in bad situations, I know. 

It would be cool to somehow have a get together or two for some fun in bike talk, but maybe have a bike there and just a chance to really hear and see what others are doing and what may be counter productive to the safest way through some turns?!  I dunno, just a thought. 

Im ahead of schedule, moving the wrist only as far as i mtold I can, been walking fine at a nrmal pace, but the amount of fluid buildup is kinda not good.  may be infected undeneath, but oh well. Drain it, get my wrist toopen up through some PT that starts next week and we will be running up front again!  Hey at leats now when I drive I can pull my foot off the gas now! lol  The brakes and tranny dont like both pedals being used, lol!

Cheers,

 N8!

Speaking from the orthopedic crowd, the only thing I can say is somedays, just getting out of bed is a challenge, other days it's just getting out of bed to face another challenge.

 I like what you have to say on body placement.  When I took my MSA course it was a big topic as some riders were sitting bolt upright, outstretched arms and 90* hip to back.  You know the look, the perenial vespa pose.  Well long story short, they'd get these poor 250's leaned about ready to low side becasue they were affraid to move form their vespa pilot pose.  So mr. instructor took one of them out and ran the whole figure 8 with the bike straight up and him swining around like a monkey.

This of course brings me to a bad habbit of my own, one I've been told is either very good for specific conditions or is just a bad habbit left over from the long gone days when bike meant pedals.  I have a habbit of counter leaning in hit/miss turn sections.  Like you would on a dirt bike.  For those who are not following if I lean my bike left, I'll lean my torso right.  I find it helps maintain speed in crossing camber turns.  What say the group?

Dang... too much sun today.

Almost forgot.  The way its been told to me, race rubber for bikes sacrifices centerline construction & stiffness to reinforce the sidewalls which translates to lean angles well past 60* before the bike starts to get into trouble.  But this comes at the price of stright up stright line stability which accounts for the charastic wobble we see.  

But this construction is not carried over to street tires becasue they need load carry capability and long term stress reinforcement. 

 Is thi sin fact the case, EG we'll never be able to lay out road bikes over on road rubber like you can on race rubber?

Nate, thank you.  Very enjoyable thread.

Tried to pay greater attention to keeping the elbow/shoulder down in the corners today. 

I've seen folks post photos of their bikes leaned over somewhat in a turn, but their upper body and head is just as you said - rather centered on the bike with only the visor turned toward the corner.  Bad form. 

One of the most wonderful things about riding is the challenge of improving one's skills.

Thanks for helping us with these challenges!!

Heal well Nate.

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N8

 awesome post anytime you have time to share some riding knowledge Im all ears! Thanks